1 00:00:12,250 --> 00:00:06,150 you 2 00:00:18,690 --> 00:00:14,340 [Music] 3 00:00:20,589 --> 00:00:18,700 thank you very much uh so we're all here 4 00:00:21,850 --> 00:00:20,599 because we're interested in this 5 00:00:24,310 --> 00:00:21,860 question of are we alone in the universe 6 00:00:26,320 --> 00:00:24,320 and there's been so many amazing planet 7 00:00:28,089 --> 00:00:26,330 discoveries in this past year for 8 00:00:29,950 --> 00:00:28,099 example the whole planet around our 9 00:00:35,530 --> 00:00:29,960 closest star Proxima Centauri last 10 00:00:39,939 --> 00:00:35,540 August the three Trappist planets if 11 00:00:42,970 --> 00:00:39,949 this is working if the three Travis 12 00:00:46,180 --> 00:00:42,980 planets that were also found in the 13 00:00:47,860 --> 00:00:46,190 habitable zone and of course LHS 11:40 B 14 00:00:51,430 --> 00:00:47,870 there's just been so many amazing 15 00:00:53,200 --> 00:00:51,440 discoveries recently and and so when we 16 00:00:57,490 --> 00:00:53,210 think about this we're really talking a 17 00:00:59,740 --> 00:00:57,500 lot about these M dwarfs and M dwarfs 18 00:01:01,180 --> 00:00:59,750 are much smaller than the Sun and you 19 00:01:02,950 --> 00:01:01,190 can see this kind of relative size 20 00:01:05,109 --> 00:01:02,960 depiction here and from Kepler we've 21 00:01:07,090 --> 00:01:05,119 learned that one in four members likely 22 00:01:09,100 --> 00:01:07,100 have a habitable planet and so we need 23 00:01:10,330 --> 00:01:09,110 to consider that these planets that 24 00:01:12,430 --> 00:01:10,340 we're going to be finding are going to 25 00:01:15,490 --> 00:01:12,440 be around stars that are very different 26 00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:15,500 from our Sun and so here's just a image 27 00:01:19,600 --> 00:01:18,290 of all the nearby known stars and our 28 00:01:22,990 --> 00:01:19,610 stellar neighborhood and you can see 29 00:01:25,990 --> 00:01:23,000 that 75% of them are M dwarfs and and 30 00:01:29,740 --> 00:01:26,000 relatively few are argue dwarf like like 31 00:01:31,899 --> 00:01:29,750 our Sun so one of the first things that 32 00:01:33,850 --> 00:01:31,909 we need to look at is how does the star 33 00:01:36,280 --> 00:01:33,860 impact the atmosphere the spectral 34 00:01:38,380 --> 00:01:36,290 fingerprints and the bio bio signatures 35 00:01:40,149 --> 00:01:38,390 in in that planet and as we go 36 00:01:43,300 --> 00:01:40,159 astronomers for the non astronomers in 37 00:01:45,100 --> 00:01:43,310 the room as we talk about fgk stars F 38 00:01:46,330 --> 00:01:45,110 are the bigger ones and M are the 39 00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:46,340 smaller ones so I'm going to be using 40 00:01:51,249 --> 00:01:47,930 this terminology throughout the talk of 41 00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:51,259 F G K and M stars G stars like our Sun 42 00:01:55,420 --> 00:01:52,850 and by and large you're going from 43 00:01:57,039 --> 00:01:55,430 higher UV environment to a lower UV 44 00:01:58,330 --> 00:01:57,049 environment with some caveats which I'll 45 00:02:01,090 --> 00:01:58,340 explain in just a second 46 00:02:03,910 --> 00:02:01,100 so UV is interesting because it destroys 47 00:02:06,580 --> 00:02:03,920 some bio signatures such as methane in 48 00:02:08,229 --> 00:02:06,590 the atmosphere perhaps making it harder 49 00:02:10,840 --> 00:02:08,239 to detect around a planet with a lot of 50 00:02:12,610 --> 00:02:10,850 UV but on the other hand UV produces 51 00:02:15,880 --> 00:02:12,620 some bio signatures such as ozone 52 00:02:18,340 --> 00:02:15,890 through the fatalis of oxygen and so and 53 00:02:20,140 --> 00:02:18,350 when we look at reaction rates we really 54 00:02:22,390 --> 00:02:20,150 see that it's the ratio of how much far 55 00:02:24,440 --> 00:02:22,400 UV to near UV that ultimately matters 56 00:02:26,180 --> 00:02:24,450 and you can see that's easiest in the 57 00:02:28,460 --> 00:02:26,190 production and destruction rates of 58 00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:28,470 ozone if you look here the production of 59 00:02:33,410 --> 00:02:30,810 ozone depends primarily on the far UV 60 00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:33,420 radiation whereas ozone destruction can 61 00:02:39,350 --> 00:02:36,210 happen by near UV radiation as well and 62 00:02:42,560 --> 00:02:39,360 going back to that statement I made 63 00:02:44,810 --> 00:02:42,570 earlier of these more massive stars have 64 00:02:47,090 --> 00:02:44,820 higher UV it's really that they have a 65 00:02:49,970 --> 00:02:47,100 higher near UV because they still have 66 00:02:52,970 --> 00:02:49,980 that blackbody continuum flux in the in 67 00:02:55,400 --> 00:02:52,980 the near UV and and these lower mass 68 00:02:57,320 --> 00:02:55,410 stars have a much higher ratio of far UV 69 00:02:59,720 --> 00:02:57,330 to near UV flux so this is what's 70 00:03:01,610 --> 00:02:59,730 changing the different atmospheres 71 00:03:04,310 --> 00:03:01,620 around these different stellar host 72 00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:04,320 stars so we also know that planets 73 00:03:08,390 --> 00:03:06,810 evolved from geology to plate tectonics 74 00:03:10,430 --> 00:03:08,400 in life our own atmosphere has not 75 00:03:12,080 --> 00:03:10,440 stayed the same and we heard you know 76 00:03:14,690 --> 00:03:12,090 possible things we had things like the 77 00:03:16,730 --> 00:03:14,700 idea or the Archaean snowball phases and 78 00:03:19,070 --> 00:03:16,740 the jurassic period and other things in 79 00:03:21,410 --> 00:03:19,080 in our earth history and so this is a 80 00:03:22,790 --> 00:03:21,420 nice little diagram that we're going to 81 00:03:24,320 --> 00:03:22,800 think that bio signatures are going to 82 00:03:26,270 --> 00:03:24,330 also change over this geological time 83 00:03:28,040 --> 00:03:26,280 and you know talking going back to just 84 00:03:29,360 --> 00:03:28,050 talk about possible Hayes's that we're 85 00:03:31,220 --> 00:03:29,370 going to see or different chemistry's 86 00:03:33,020 --> 00:03:31,230 there happen in the atmosphere so here 87 00:03:35,510 --> 00:03:33,030 you can see that at the formation of 88 00:03:38,090 --> 00:03:35,520 Earth we think this is just a broad 89 00:03:39,530 --> 00:03:38,100 schematic picture we don't have exact 90 00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:39,540 numbers for a lot of these things on 91 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:41,370 early Earth history but there was a lot 92 00:03:46,790 --> 00:03:44,250 more co2 during the early Earth history 93 00:03:48,830 --> 00:03:46,800 there was a rise probably a methane 94 00:03:51,800 --> 00:03:48,840 given the longer lifetime of methane in 95 00:03:55,010 --> 00:03:51,810 the atmosphere without oxygen and the 96 00:03:57,320 --> 00:03:55,020 biosphere being dominated by Genesis and 97 00:03:59,810 --> 00:03:57,330 then oxygen sort of seemed to rise 98 00:04:02,840 --> 00:03:59,820 broadly speaking in two stages so you 99 00:04:04,700 --> 00:04:02,850 had sort of this first rise of oxygen 100 00:04:05,990 --> 00:04:04,710 and then and then a later rise of oxygen 101 00:04:08,420 --> 00:04:06,000 to modern levels when we heard about 102 00:04:11,930 --> 00:04:08,430 this in Sony Hartman's talked earlier in 103 00:04:13,340 --> 00:04:11,940 the in this session before lunch and so 104 00:04:14,750 --> 00:04:13,350 if we look at just I'm going to pull out 105 00:04:15,920 --> 00:04:14,760 four different time points that I'm 106 00:04:17,690 --> 00:04:15,930 going to talk about with you how we 107 00:04:19,340 --> 00:04:17,700 could detect oxygen through geological 108 00:04:20,960 --> 00:04:19,350 time and considering these different 109 00:04:22,940 --> 00:04:20,970 star types so the first one is looking 110 00:04:25,280 --> 00:04:22,950 at sort of a prebiotic planet you know 111 00:04:27,560 --> 00:04:25,290 something with higher co2 some methane 112 00:04:30,710 --> 00:04:27,570 from volcanism but not yet from 'santa 113 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:30,720 Genesis and and no oxygen and then also 114 00:04:35,750 --> 00:04:32,810 looking at things that are around 1% 115 00:04:37,200 --> 00:04:35,760 modern concentration so that p al you're 116 00:04:38,909 --> 00:04:37,210 going to see a lot of present 117 00:04:43,110 --> 00:04:38,919 spirit level so that's one percent of 118 00:04:46,860 --> 00:04:43,120 our 21% oxygen after the great oxidation 119 00:04:49,620 --> 00:04:46,870 event and then a third time point with 120 00:04:51,689 --> 00:04:49,630 around 10 percent oxygen and then of 121 00:04:59,129 --> 00:04:51,699 course modern earth with our 21 percent 122 00:05:01,860 --> 00:04:59,139 oxygen in the atmosphere so if we look 123 00:05:04,620 --> 00:05:01,870 here this is the oxygen a band at point 124 00:05:06,390 --> 00:05:04,630 7 6 microns and this is just showing in 125 00:05:09,450 --> 00:05:06,400 the first column you see a prebiotic 126 00:05:11,670 --> 00:05:09,460 planet then a 1 percent again modern of 127 00:05:13,529 --> 00:05:11,680 modern concentrations 10 percent P al o 128 00:05:15,749 --> 00:05:13,539 2 and the modern earth this is for 129 00:05:17,730 --> 00:05:15,759 different star types FG km but we 130 00:05:20,370 --> 00:05:17,740 haven't yet considered things like 131 00:05:23,040 --> 00:05:20,380 surface reflectivity or the stellar 132 00:05:24,540 --> 00:05:23,050 impact and so this is just showing that 133 00:05:26,790 --> 00:05:24,550 we're using the same basic oxygen 134 00:05:28,649 --> 00:05:26,800 concentration for each when we put this 135 00:05:30,330 --> 00:05:28,659 in a in a clear sky model where we're 136 00:05:31,980 --> 00:05:30,340 not considering clouds but we are 137 00:05:33,480 --> 00:05:31,990 considering different effects on the 138 00:05:35,909 --> 00:05:33,490 atmosphere like rayleigh scattering and 139 00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:35,919 and whatnot for direct detection spectra 140 00:05:39,180 --> 00:05:37,930 you can see that you see is there a 141 00:05:43,529 --> 00:05:39,190 laser pointer on this one 142 00:05:44,909 --> 00:05:43,539 I don't oh sorry thanks you can see that 143 00:05:48,480 --> 00:05:44,919 you can see that you start to get that 144 00:05:51,089 --> 00:05:48,490 little that little bump for oxygen at 1% 145 00:05:52,980 --> 00:05:51,099 and 10% and then and then the modern 146 00:05:55,020 --> 00:05:52,990 concentrations again there's color code 147 00:05:57,420 --> 00:05:55,030 is for F G K and stars so the hotter 148 00:05:59,879 --> 00:05:57,430 stars are the purple lines going down to 149 00:06:02,490 --> 00:05:59,889 the red for the M stars and when we add 150 00:06:04,589 --> 00:06:02,500 clouds that feature seems to obscure 151 00:06:05,939 --> 00:06:04,599 quite substantially so you whatever 152 00:06:10,320 --> 00:06:05,949 little bump we had here we don't really 153 00:06:11,879 --> 00:06:10,330 see it and even for the 10% cases and so 154 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:11,889 this led us to think about well okay 155 00:06:16,370 --> 00:06:13,690 what is actually happening with the 156 00:06:19,189 --> 00:06:16,380 effect of clouds on the spectra and so 157 00:06:23,939 --> 00:06:19,199 just looking at the full earth-like 158 00:06:26,370 --> 00:06:23,949 spectra here in the visible if we were 159 00:06:28,020 --> 00:06:26,380 to just assume a hundred percent clouds 160 00:06:29,279 --> 00:06:28,030 at 12 kilometers or six kilometers in 161 00:06:32,510 --> 00:06:29,289 one kilometer that's what these lines 162 00:06:36,689 --> 00:06:32,520 represent the dashed line is a clear sky 163 00:06:39,029 --> 00:06:36,699 model for earth the black line is 100% 164 00:06:42,420 --> 00:06:39,039 clouds at 12 kilometers the red line is 165 00:06:44,430 --> 00:06:42,430 100% at 6 and the blue line is 100% 166 00:06:46,769 --> 00:06:44,440 clouds at one corner so you can see in 167 00:06:48,689 --> 00:06:46,779 the visible for the higher clouds it 168 00:06:50,610 --> 00:06:48,699 really does block a lot of the features 169 00:06:52,409 --> 00:06:50,620 below it as we would expect 170 00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:52,419 and it's a little different in the 171 00:06:57,510 --> 00:06:54,730 infrared here is the again for the 172 00:07:00,240 --> 00:06:57,520 hundred-percent 12 kilometers six 173 00:07:02,370 --> 00:07:00,250 climbers in one kilometer clouds the 174 00:07:04,440 --> 00:07:02,380 infrared differs because it also depends 175 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:04,450 on the temperature of that cloud layer 176 00:07:07,409 --> 00:07:06,010 and where the species is sitting in the 177 00:07:09,690 --> 00:07:07,419 atmosphere and the temperature of the 178 00:07:11,820 --> 00:07:09,700 absorbing and emitting layer now so if 179 00:07:13,950 --> 00:07:11,830 we look then if we take out what I 180 00:07:15,060 --> 00:07:13,960 wanted to do is just take out all the 181 00:07:17,010 --> 00:07:15,070 things that we were probably going to be 182 00:07:18,300 --> 00:07:17,020 able to correct for with with telescopes 183 00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:18,310 so we're going to be able to observe the 184 00:07:23,280 --> 00:07:21,370 star simultaneously for for example but 185 00:07:24,930 --> 00:07:23,290 we're probably not necessarily going to 186 00:07:26,490 --> 00:07:24,940 know the surface reflectivity so I left 187 00:07:29,070 --> 00:07:26,500 the surface reflectivity in but I took 188 00:07:30,840 --> 00:07:29,080 out the the influence of the stars 189 00:07:34,080 --> 00:07:30,850 ooming that we could completely remove 190 00:07:36,690 --> 00:07:34,090 that signal and here then looking at the 191 00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:36,700 situation with the light blue line is 192 00:07:41,280 --> 00:07:39,130 the one percent the the middle line here 193 00:07:43,230 --> 00:07:41,290 is a ten percent and the hundred percent 194 00:07:45,150 --> 00:07:43,240 oxygen case this is for zero percent 195 00:07:46,890 --> 00:07:45,160 clouds and now we're going to go up to a 196 00:07:48,780 --> 00:07:46,900 hundred percent clouds and so you can 197 00:07:51,930 --> 00:07:48,790 see how the the feature strengths are 198 00:07:55,560 --> 00:07:51,940 diminishing with cloud cloud percentage 199 00:07:58,560 --> 00:07:55,570 for for these different levels of oxygen 200 00:08:00,930 --> 00:07:58,570 and and of course it's much stronger but 201 00:08:05,700 --> 00:08:00,940 effect when you have less of it and and 202 00:08:07,650 --> 00:08:05,710 and you see it's pretty much diminished 203 00:08:10,279 --> 00:08:07,660 for especially the one in ten percent 204 00:08:13,890 --> 00:08:10,289 cases so if we want to consider then 205 00:08:16,350 --> 00:08:13,900 ozone as a possible proxy let's see how 206 00:08:18,540 --> 00:08:16,360 that is influenced by clouds so we have 207 00:08:20,190 --> 00:08:18,550 the same setup with the prebiotic case 208 00:08:23,940 --> 00:08:20,200 the one percent ten percent of modern 209 00:08:26,879 --> 00:08:23,950 earth and here you have already with our 210 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:26,889 clear sky models we we see these strong 211 00:08:32,100 --> 00:08:28,690 features of ozone especially for the F 212 00:08:34,980 --> 00:08:32,110 and G stars early on with only one 213 00:08:36,959 --> 00:08:34,990 percent oxygen levels and and then of 214 00:08:39,770 --> 00:08:36,969 course the feature is quite strong going 215 00:08:43,020 --> 00:08:39,780 up until modern when we add clouds 216 00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:43,030 there's less of a less of a diminishing 217 00:08:47,190 --> 00:08:45,250 effect of those clouds on the ozone 218 00:08:48,420 --> 00:08:47,200 feature and I think this is most 219 00:08:51,810 --> 00:08:48,430 striking if you compare these two 220 00:08:55,440 --> 00:08:51,820 side-by-side with the oxygen feature and 221 00:08:57,440 --> 00:08:55,450 the ozone feature this is assuming a 60% 222 00:09:00,480 --> 00:08:57,450 cloud similar to what we have on earth 223 00:09:03,330 --> 00:09:00,490 with cloud layers at one commerce 224 00:09:06,870 --> 00:09:03,340 more than 12 kilometers you see here's 225 00:09:09,150 --> 00:09:06,880 the prebiotic case the 1% P al to 10% 226 00:09:10,590 --> 00:09:09,160 and the modern earth concentrations and 227 00:09:13,650 --> 00:09:10,600 you would be able to detect that 228 00:09:16,140 --> 00:09:13,660 presence through the ozone feature much 229 00:09:19,890 --> 00:09:16,150 earlier in Earth's history and so if we 230 00:09:21,510 --> 00:09:19,900 look at also the detect ability of o2 is 231 00:09:23,100 --> 00:09:21,520 Lavar now this is using the chronograph 232 00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:23,110 simulator that has already been I think 233 00:09:27,450 --> 00:09:24,730 mentioned three or four times in this 234 00:09:29,670 --> 00:09:27,460 session from tae Robinson if we look at 235 00:09:32,040 --> 00:09:29,680 this and calculate what are the rough 236 00:09:35,490 --> 00:09:32,050 integration times that we could get with 237 00:09:37,890 --> 00:09:35,500 Lubar to detect oxygen with different 238 00:09:39,390 --> 00:09:37,900 cloud coverages and altitudes so here we 239 00:09:41,160 --> 00:09:39,400 have increasing cloud coverage and 240 00:09:43,470 --> 00:09:41,170 different cloud layers so you'll notice 241 00:09:46,110 --> 00:09:43,480 it's actually easiest to detect with a 242 00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:46,120 higher percentage of clouds which might 243 00:09:50,340 --> 00:09:48,370 encounter intuitive but you get a higher 244 00:09:52,200 --> 00:09:50,350 signal with the like the added 245 00:09:54,870 --> 00:09:52,210 reflectivity and if it's a low layer 246 00:09:56,400 --> 00:09:54,880 cloud that oxygen still above the cloud 247 00:09:58,830 --> 00:09:56,410 deck and so you are going to increase 248 00:10:01,650 --> 00:09:58,840 your signal that way whereas if you have 249 00:10:03,810 --> 00:10:01,660 higher clouds and a higher cloud 250 00:10:08,100 --> 00:10:03,820 altitude then it becomes harder to 251 00:10:10,860 --> 00:10:08,110 detect and so the last thing I want to 252 00:10:12,090 --> 00:10:10,870 show you is is looking at the bio 253 00:10:13,890 --> 00:10:12,100 signature detection then through 254 00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:13,900 geological time if we just pull out 255 00:10:22,200 --> 00:10:17,490 things in the IR here this is again the 256 00:10:24,480 --> 00:10:22,210 3.9 giga year are so pre life phase a IR 257 00:10:29,190 --> 00:10:24,490 spectra for different spectral types and 258 00:10:32,910 --> 00:10:29,200 if we go down to the 1% PIL case the 10% 259 00:10:35,310 --> 00:10:32,920 PA l case and the modern earth case we 260 00:10:37,590 --> 00:10:35,320 can see that the first again the first 261 00:10:39,660 --> 00:10:37,600 combination especially a bio signatures 262 00:10:42,930 --> 00:10:39,670 is going to happen when you can detect 263 00:10:45,750 --> 00:10:42,940 possibly ozone in combination with 264 00:10:47,940 --> 00:10:45,760 methane in the IR and you can most 265 00:10:50,100 --> 00:10:47,950 easily do this for these hotter spectral 266 00:10:51,660 --> 00:10:50,110 types for early levels of oxygen where 267 00:10:53,460 --> 00:10:51,670 you're going to get that production rate 268 00:10:56,010 --> 00:10:53,470 and be able to see those together and 269 00:10:58,140 --> 00:10:56,020 then by around 10% PL you can detect it 270 00:11:00,690 --> 00:10:58,150 for a lot of different star types and 271 00:11:02,190 --> 00:11:00,700 and that's that's maybe one 272 00:11:04,920 --> 00:11:02,200 consideration we should consider when 273 00:11:07,890 --> 00:11:04,930 we're looking for these planets around 274 00:11:10,980 --> 00:11:07,900 other stars - at what geological phases 275 00:11:13,540 --> 00:11:10,990 we might be able to best detect life so 276 00:11:16,570 --> 00:11:13,550 in summary we know that the 277 00:11:18,940 --> 00:11:16,580 UV is going to be a huge player in and 278 00:11:20,710 --> 00:11:18,950 the spectral type of the star I think 279 00:11:22,780 --> 00:11:20,720 this really highlights the need for we 280 00:11:24,670 --> 00:11:22,790 need simultaneous UV observations of 281 00:11:26,170 --> 00:11:24,680 these two stars and after Hubble without 282 00:11:28,210 --> 00:11:26,180 a UV mission we need to do something 283 00:11:30,639 --> 00:11:28,220 about that because the UV dominates so 284 00:11:32,980 --> 00:11:30,649 much of our modeling and for retrieval 285 00:11:35,319 --> 00:11:32,990 methods this will really be vital for 286 00:11:36,460 --> 00:11:35,329 understanding planets will be at a wide 287 00:11:38,440 --> 00:11:36,470 range of different evolutionary 288 00:11:39,759 --> 00:11:38,450 histories I just highlighted some things 289 00:11:41,860 --> 00:11:39,769 from Earth on history but we're going to 290 00:11:43,569 --> 00:11:41,870 see such a huge range even beyond that 291 00:11:44,769 --> 00:11:43,579 so we need to be considering those as a 292 00:11:46,840 --> 00:11:44,779 lot of other talks have already done 293 00:11:48,490 --> 00:11:46,850 today and also you know clouds for 294 00:11:50,280 --> 00:11:48,500 oxygen it might it might be a little sad 295 00:11:53,110 --> 00:11:50,290 but you can still see ozone quite 296 00:12:03,280 --> 00:11:53,120 strongly throughout so I'll stop there 297 00:12:05,259 --> 00:12:03,290 with any questions thank you so much 298 00:12:07,150 --> 00:12:05,269 there a please if you have any questions 299 00:12:13,660 --> 00:12:07,160 come up to one of the microphones in the 300 00:12:15,310 --> 00:12:13,670 center of the room so you have some sean 301 00:12:17,290 --> 00:12:15,320 donahoe coleman esse goddard so if you 302 00:12:18,639 --> 00:12:17,300 had a you know you're hinting that if 303 00:12:20,230 --> 00:12:18,649 you had a choice between getting the 304 00:12:22,510 --> 00:12:20,240 oxygen or getting those on you'd go for 305 00:12:25,569 --> 00:12:22,520 the ozone given the clouds problem but 306 00:12:28,030 --> 00:12:25,579 what if the choice is really oxygen with 307 00:12:30,579 --> 00:12:28,040 direct imaging versus ozone with the 308 00:12:32,019 --> 00:12:30,589 transit transmission measurement where 309 00:12:35,199 --> 00:12:32,029 the clouds might become more of an issue 310 00:12:38,500 --> 00:12:35,209 for that kind of measurement so are you 311 00:12:42,280 --> 00:12:38,510 saying ozone in the IR in the in the IR 312 00:12:44,170 --> 00:12:42,290 um yeah I mean foof I'm thinking you 313 00:12:46,510 --> 00:12:44,180 know like if it's a choice between like 314 00:12:48,579 --> 00:12:46,520 a JWST or an Origin Space Telescope 315 00:12:50,050 --> 00:12:48,589 where you can operate any and thread but 316 00:12:53,620 --> 00:12:50,060 you're limited to transit transactions 317 00:12:55,960 --> 00:12:53,630 and UV vis direct imaging yeah I mean 318 00:12:57,790 --> 00:12:55,970 it's hard because ultimately I you know 319 00:12:59,500 --> 00:12:57,800 as we've been talking you kind of need 320 00:13:02,319 --> 00:12:59,510 both and I'm going back to Sonics talk 321 00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:02,329 on this you know especially depending on 322 00:13:05,980 --> 00:13:04,130 what the level of a bad aqaq sejoon 323 00:13:08,829 --> 00:13:05,990 could be reached and hell and then what 324 00:13:10,420 --> 00:13:08,839 ozone level that could be detectable for 325 00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:10,430 these features it might be ambiguous 326 00:13:15,819 --> 00:13:13,610 even even detecting ozone as well you 327 00:13:17,650 --> 00:13:15,829 know I think Vicky once said that she's 328 00:13:20,110 --> 00:13:17,660 like I want both you know I want I want 329 00:13:21,650 --> 00:13:20,120 to detect the the oxygen because that 330 00:13:24,499 --> 00:13:21,660 gives you an 331 00:13:26,329 --> 00:13:24,509 which is really useful and we also want 332 00:13:27,799 --> 00:13:26,339 to detect you know the IR features are 333 00:13:30,919 --> 00:13:27,809 just an easier place to detect molecules 334 00:13:33,650 --> 00:13:30,929 and gases I personally prefer the IR but 335 00:13:35,299 --> 00:13:33,660 I do think ultimately getting we need 336 00:13:37,819 --> 00:13:35,309 the UV so I also want to I don't know I 337 00:13:42,759 --> 00:13:37,829 want it all right I didn't really hope 338 00:13:56,569 --> 00:13:45,919 okay can you get we have few more 339 00:13:59,359 --> 00:13:56,579 minutes stuff time so yep yeah all right 340 00:14:00,679 --> 00:13:59,369 I'll just do this so which aspects of so 341 00:14:03,499 --> 00:14:00,689 this was looking at sort of earth-like 342 00:14:05,359 --> 00:14:03,509 chemistry's as we move away from planets 343 00:14:07,449 --> 00:14:05,369 that may not be like earth which aspects 344 00:14:09,980 --> 00:14:07,459 of sort of degassing chemistry or 345 00:14:12,739 --> 00:14:09,990 geology are really are going to affect 346 00:14:15,169 --> 00:14:12,749 the strength of that ozone signal the 347 00:14:17,629 --> 00:14:15,179 strength of the ozone him well you were 348 00:14:19,879 --> 00:14:17,639 talking about ozone so if the chemistry 349 00:14:23,090 --> 00:14:19,889 was different than the earth are there 350 00:14:24,470 --> 00:14:23,100 ways of putting reductants into the 351 00:14:27,049 --> 00:14:24,480 atmosphere that could change her ozone 352 00:14:29,389 --> 00:14:27,059 signal so how could you could you model 353 00:14:30,980 --> 00:14:29,399 that as well sure so definitely 354 00:14:33,169 --> 00:14:30,990 depending I think because ozone 355 00:14:34,939 --> 00:14:33,179 primarily comes from oxygen so we're 356 00:14:38,449 --> 00:14:34,949 talking about how much oxygen could be 357 00:14:40,309 --> 00:14:38,459 there so so I refer you to several 358 00:14:42,829 --> 00:14:40,319 papers that have been done on this this 359 00:14:44,629 --> 00:14:42,839 balance of infection on donegal Goldman 360 00:14:46,039 --> 00:14:44,639 has a great paper talking about the 361 00:14:48,410 --> 00:14:46,049 different types of reducing plant 362 00:14:50,569 --> 00:14:48,420 Affairs and then where you can get how 363 00:14:53,359 --> 00:14:50,579 much oxygen you could get and then you 364 00:14:54,980 --> 00:14:53,369 can use from that ozone as well and so I 365 00:15:00,980 --> 00:14:54,990 would I would refer to Sean Donnell 366 00:15:03,650 --> 00:15:00,990 Goldman's 2014 paper hi Sarah nice talk 367 00:15:05,179 --> 00:15:03,660 good to see you again good to see so you 368 00:15:07,489 --> 00:15:05,189 said the very end that you wanted 369 00:15:09,410 --> 00:15:07,499 simultaneous UV can you comment more on 370 00:15:14,269 --> 00:15:09,420 the balance between simultaneous sources 371 00:15:16,549 --> 00:15:14,279 contemporaneous UV yes so I think with M 372 00:15:18,139 --> 00:15:16,559 stars that are flaring and having high 373 00:15:20,179 --> 00:15:18,149 activity levels it would be really great 374 00:15:23,900 --> 00:15:20,189 to know kind of what what's happening 375 00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:23,910 ideally some at the same time for stars 376 00:15:28,369 --> 00:15:26,610 that are quieter like fgk stars you 377 00:15:32,329 --> 00:15:28,379 probably can just get an idea of what's 378 00:15:33,499 --> 00:15:32,339 happening with the UV in general I know 379 00:15:34,540 --> 00:15:33,509 there's some models that are trying to 380 00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:34,550 develop too 381 00:15:39,220 --> 00:15:37,250 how we get this 4m stars but I with with 382 00:15:41,889 --> 00:15:39,230 the amount of variability within M stars 383 00:15:44,470 --> 00:15:41,899 and also the extreme influence that has 384 00:15:46,210 --> 00:15:44,480 on our ability to tease out these false 385 00:15:48,220 --> 00:15:46,220 positives especially which tend to be 386 00:15:51,310 --> 00:15:48,230 predominantly for M stars 387 00:15:53,410 --> 00:15:51,320 I want as simultaneous as we can get for 388 00:15:54,970 --> 00:15:53,420 UV I think would be useful if not at 389 00:15:56,019 --> 00:15:54,980 least having an idea of how frequent are 390 00:15:58,449 --> 00:15:56,029 these flares 391 00:16:00,910 --> 00:15:58,459 what is the the state's you know the 392 00:16:02,380 --> 00:16:00,920 study states between the flaring state 393 00:16:04,660 --> 00:16:02,390 and acquire some states so that we can 394 00:16:05,740 --> 00:16:04,670 use that into our retrieval models and 395 00:16:07,030 --> 00:16:05,750 make sure that the atmosphere is not 396 00:16:10,630 --> 00:16:07,040 changing quite so much in that time 397 00:16:13,389 --> 00:16:10,640 scale so you think then the response 398 00:16:15,430 --> 00:16:13,399 time is instantaneous from a UV flare or 399 00:16:18,600 --> 00:16:15,440 fires instantaneous there's actually 400 00:16:23,710 --> 00:16:18,610 there's actually a paper that came out 401 00:16:26,050 --> 00:16:23,720 last year I I can send you the reference 402 00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:26,060 I'm blanking on the name in my in my 403 00:16:29,829 --> 00:16:28,250 brain right now but now I think that 404 00:16:31,240 --> 00:16:29,839 looks at the you know the hysteresis 405 00:16:32,889 --> 00:16:31,250 affective response times of the 406 00:16:37,590 --> 00:16:32,899 atmosphere after a flare and I think 407 00:16:39,940 --> 00:16:37,600 it's like ah if I remember 10 to the 7 408 00:16:42,310 --> 00:16:39,950 I'm not going to say a number because I 409 00:16:44,019 --> 00:16:42,320 could be wrong but there is some there's 410 00:16:45,970 --> 00:16:44,029 some like legs time between these 411 00:16:47,980 --> 00:16:45,980 responses and then multiple flares on 412 00:16:52,150 --> 00:16:47,990 how it gets to a different atmospheric 413 00:16:53,680 --> 00:16:52,160 state thanks think think looks like